In the spirit of group work and also just to explore Vygotsky’s Premise that “learning and knowledge are active, creative processes” (Roskelly 28) Jeff and I had a discussion on gmail chat to form our post for today. We’ve edited that chat a bit for readability, but mostly what you see here is akin to the conversations that Roskelly observed in the book. We feel it shows similar details as chapter two about how groups interact to make a plan under which to proceed and test concepts. It also serves, we think, as a playful beginning for our discussion of Breaking (into) the Circle. Please note: all smileys, lols, j/k's have been redacted from this version.
Mackenzie: Hey.
Jeff: Hey.
Mackenzie: I'll try and refrain from using smileys, but it will take self restraint.
Jeff: So lets get on it.
I encourage smileys,
go nuts with them.
Mackenzie: Also, let's try and use descent grammar so we don't have to go back through and revise for it as heavily.
Jeff: Dont I always?
Mackenzie: Ha, yeah well that was more for myself.
OK, well, I'd just like to start by mentioning this book makes me hyper-conscious of everything I say in groups now.
Jeff: So, should we do this as an interview, or more of a conversation?
Mackenzie: I'd prefer conversation. Seems that's more natural which according to Roskelly is a better way to learn. By the way, James Strickland started things off by peeving me.
Jeff: How did Strickland peeve you?
Mackenzie: On viii like the third paragraph. I'll paraphrase: He claims robins are preprogrammed for life. Any time people make false claims about other species to stress human superiority I get peeved.
Jeff: yeah, that was a strange thing to bring up.
Mackenzie: I just want that off my chest. It’s false to my experience. Birds are very social learners.
Jeff: it seems like all animals are/have to be. Not social learners but learners.
Mackenzie: Yes, exactly. But also very different in their interactions than humans.
Jeff: Otherwise they wouldn't survive.
Mackenzie: No one species is more or less pre-programmed. We're all dynamic.
Jeff: But this may be a little tangential.
Mackenzie: Anyway, Roskelly didn't piss me off. Yes, but it will be fun for everyone to read I think! I am just excited for how this will document our dialogue in a way similar to what goes on in the book.
Jeff: No, she's too damn optimistic about group work/life to really be pissed by her.
She makes it all sound so easy.
Mackenzie: Ha! Yeah I think we're all inclined to write about something we've figured out pretty well by the time we publish.... er if that makes sense.
So as we further do the work all groups do at first meeting of figuring out a way to proceed, I'd like to suggest we take turns offering up things to talk about from the text. Jeff: I think that is a capital idea.
Mackenzie: Ha! Great!
I can start if you want?
Jeff: Go for it.
Mackenzie: One minute while I find/type a quote?
Jeff: K.
Mackenzie: I think the introduction is worth spending a little time on. Because it answers the “So What?!” question Ballenger is always bringing up.
Jeff: I'm looking at it now, and what specifically would you like me to discuss about it?
Mackenzie: Roskelly talks about a "circle of sameness that prevents voices from being heard and ideas from being questioned" (xii) and she generally says that small group work helps break up the traditions of established teaching that make that circle, traditions like hierarchy, race and gender. At least, I think that’s what she’s getting at. Also, that breaking those patterns is important for learning to occur, especially when we're interested in helping our students think about big, challenging and new ideas, like class, gender, and I'd add environmental issues.
Jeff: Ok, so yeah, she's talking about "breaking the circle", meaning exploring new places, taking on new roles, etc. Do you buy that what she offers us is the way to best achieve that?
Mackenzie: I guess I'm wondering if you agree with her thesis that group work is essential to that sort of learning?
Jeff: (I'm playing devil's advocate).
Well it looks like we've asked each other the same question.
Mackenzie: Yeah, that was my thinking to, to question her a little.
Ha!
Jeff: I'll go first.
Mackenzie: Great!
Jeff: Something she brings up a lot in the book is this idea of theory v. practice and while I think that a lot of what she talks about, her maxims, her reasoning for the efficacy of group work, are based on a teacher who is experienced within a classroom and has developed a certain level of comfort there.
Mackenzie: Yeah, I agree with that.
Jeff: So I guess my answer is, yes, I buy it, but I don't believe it's something I am able to achieve. It's not a place I'm ready to have my students explore because I hardly know what the "established" place is.
Mackenzie: Hmmm I can go with that.
Well we've learned the established place all our lives, our roles have just jumped. Now we wear teacher hats.
Jeff: But I don't doubt that her idea that this breaking the circle can lead to greater leaps.
It's just that now we're the jerks hovering over our groups with our arms crossed.
Mackenzie: For me, the challenge has been breaking up the power dynamic we all come into a class understanding. I think Roskelly offers a model with small group work.
Jeff: That's true, and I think that model is a good one.
Mackenzie: Though we're still in classrooms, a space that has a lot of other factors of control and a long history for everyone involved, so I'm wondering if group work really could be enough.
But I'm excited to try it.
Jeff: I think it could be if from the get-go you establish it. She talks about that in that first chapter. If you look on page 2,
Mackenzie: K
Jeff: 3rd paragraph she describes how from the very beginning she establishes the group: "'It's a writing course,' I told them. 'Guess what we'll do next time in class?' They all got it quickly. Write... 'And guess what we'll do after that... get into our groups.'"
Mackenzie: Yeah. And she makes them permanent, something I'm going to try next semester.
Jeff: Ya, that permanence is there from the start. And I don't think it's the same chapter but later on she shows us her syllabus and how that shows her students the emphasis she places on the importance of group work in the class and while she does point out that there are some flaws (some groups have too many quiet kids, some too many dominant) she believes the benefits of permanent group membership outweigh the negatives.
Mackenzie: Yeah, groups are integrated into every part of the curriculum. (An aside: I find the various figures in this book so interesting).
Jeff: Yeah, the diagrams are pretty cool. And the drawings. And the group names.
Mackenzie: Ha, I hate the names.
Jeff: I like group names.
Why do you hate them?
Mackenzie: Yeah, I don't like them, and I have no reason for it.
Jeff: Do you think it is patronizing to the students?
Because I could see it in that way
Mackenzie: Yeah I think so, that's part of it.
Also, just like she says, it invokes grade school.
Jeff: Yeah.
Mackenzie: But I'm convinced that making groups permanent does a lot for building interest in each other’s work. They get to see each other's work progress etc, see their impact, demand more of comments and feedback.
Jeff: I guess we should also address something she brings up a lot, which is: gender/race/culture differences as impediments to effective group work.
Mackenzie: Huh, I guess I read her as saying that differences become benefits.
Jeff: Well, ultimately, yes.
Mackenzie: Let's say challenges?
Jeff: But she points them out as being the biggest points of group tension. Ok, yeah, challenges.
Mackenzie: Ah yeah, they definitely do a lot to effect the dynamic and at times make tension.
Are you thinking of a specific part of the book?
Jeff: Ch. 4. But i guess I was just curious what you thought to yourself as you read that chapter. Since our teaching experience hasn't been the same as hers; I don't have any black students in my class.
Mackenzie: That's true. Both in that our students are mostly white and the curriculum we teach speaks to issues of environmental sustainability, unlike Roskelly's which looks like it's centered on identity discussions. There's another part in the chapter I really want to discuss too. After we've finished your vein.
Jeff: I've not heard any complaints from my students that originated with gender issues.
Mackenzie: Well, but you have female students, people from different backgrounds still?
Jeff: But, ya, that's what i was getting at,i don’t have a similar teaching experience as she describes in ch 1 and later on
the differences in my class are mostly small town/big city backgrounds.
Mackenzie: Ah I see what you're saying. I don't think we should undercut gender here though.
Jeff: No, and a lot of what she said about gender was quite salient.
Mackenzie: I think there can be "issues" at play even if no one is complaining about them. Meaning there's things worth talking about that aren't readily apparent.
Jeff: Yes sir.
Mackenzie: Ha ah, haha. Well played. For example, I thought when she described toward the end of chapter 3 how male groups would hurry to get everything done, and often not put much effort into reflecting, flushing out what they were doing, that was very true.
I let my students mix and match groups each day, but often they stick to the same crowds.
And I notice the two groups that are all guys tend to be the first done talking, and have the least amount written down and usually the least substantially as well. Then they like to sit there and stare anywhere but at each other!
Jeff: Yes, and i can say that's been my experience as well, not only from a teacher's perspective.
Mackenzie: Ah, like now?
Ha, sorry, I can't escape that monitoring of my own behavior thing. Am I being the dictator or are we still having a good group dynamic?
Jeff: I think the problem is, and she says this on 111, that on the surface, gender issues seem not as big as issues of race.
Have you had any examples of that in your teaching this semester?
Mackenzie: Yeah, I think that's definitely true.
Jeff: Have you seen, for example, a male student "take over" a conversation or take on the role of group leader?
Mackenzie: I'm trying to think.
Jeff: Or not take into account the perspective of the females in the group?
Mackenzie: I'll say I do worry about that for myself.
Jeff: And maybe not even consciously but without being cognizant of it?
Mackenzie: I often question if I am undercutting the women in my class or dominating the discussion (I know I do that).
Jeff: Yes, I know I dominate the discussion as well, but is that a gender thing, or a novice teacher thing?
Mackenzie: I think both. I haven't noticed that with my students, but that's one of the struggles with group work for me. I can't be watching each conversation at every moment.
But I'm also happy to say I have a lot of assertive women in my class, and I have noticed that in class discussions, women tend to contribute the most.
I could talk about this gender part for the rest of our time but maybe we should get to some other parts of the book.
Jeff: I agree.
Mackenzie: We've also kind of curbed the race discussion, maybe that's something we can ask the class to take up?
Jeff: The big thing i want to know is how you've been affected by reading this book?
what changes will you make (either this semester or next) to your approach to group work?
Mackenzie: I feel like there's a lot I'm hoping to take back into my classroom, both this semester and next.
I'm definitely having permanent groups next semester, something I consciously decided not to do this semester (even though I have that maxims of small group work list from orientation up in our office).
I kind of wish we would have read this and bell hooks at the beginning of the semester.
Jeff: I thought those looked familiar!!!!! Now I know I'd seen them before.
Mackenzie: I'm going to let my students decide if they want their groups to have names!
I'm going to make group presentations a core part of my curriculum.
(One every unit by each group, half of participation points).
That will help with covering the readings I hope.
Jeff: I liked the idea of having a folder for every group. Also, just the importance of keeping group work relevant.
Mackenzie: I'm also getting them each a manila folder to keep track of group work, I thought that was one of those great teacher things to do.
I need to figure out the logistics of who keeps track of it... me, them?
What else?
Oh gender representation in each group.
Jeff: It would be nice if they would.
Mackenzie: At least, one member of each gender.
Jeff: Make them more accountable and all.
Mackenzie: Do you think that's a good idea?
Yeah, but if the one who is supposed to have it is sick–they're all screwed?
Jeff: In theory, yes.
But I just don't trust them to bring it to class, or not lose it.
Mackenzie: Ha, me too, sadly.
What about you?
What are you taking away from this?
Jeff: I think I'm going to take a "Roskelly light" approach.
Mackenzie: (Another aside: before we finish, can we talk about the bath room graffitti and some questions for everyone else to start talking about?)
Ha!
Jeff: meaning, I want to adopt some of her practices (highlighting the importance of group work early on, fixing permanent groups, manila folder) but I don't see myself being able to pull off a complete "Roskelly approach" next semester.
I don't think I'll give them group names, but maybe I will.
Mackenzie: That sounds pretty complete to me?
Jeff: You're right.
Well, I guess what I meant was, I want to do those things but I don't think I'll succeed.
I'll still dominate conversations.
I'll still give them inappropriate group assignments from time to time.
Mackenzie: Ha, yeah that's true.
Jeff: I just won't be able to, like I mentioned at the beginning, put the theory into practice
Mackenzie: But we'll do a little better because of Breaking (into) the Circle!
Jeff: INDEED!
Thanks, Roskelly!
Mackenzie: Oh, also I just want to add what I'm taking away is what Roskelly describes in the conclusion, that groups make the teacher a learner. I get to find out what they think of the readings, what they've learned.
That they make everyone in the class room closer to a level discussion and purpose.
Ok so, if you don't mind, I've got an idea for how to finish this off.
On 99-100, Roskelly talks about some bathroom graffiti.
A topic that holds a warm spot in my heart.
Jeff: Ya, i thought that was an interesting exchange.
It sounded suspiciously made up though.
Mackenzie: Nah, there's photo evidence. I want to say that that conversation to me was just an awesome flame war, where people arguing that our culture is still inherently racist won.
My college would have graffiti conversations like that.
So it sounds believable to me.
Also, you never know who wrote what, meaning professors like Roskelli could have been involved in the conversation.
Jeff: Careful mackenzie, the way you're talking it sounds like you think argument is war...
Mackenzie: Also, I thought the exchange between students about varied high school experience was another nice point.
Haha.
Jeff: Ya, that's just another thing to keep in mind as we go forward with our plans to be better teachers.
Every student comes from a diff background and being able to address the needs of those often disparate backgrounds is something we ought to be prepared to do.
Which I'm not.
Mackenzie: Anyway, I think it just highlights both the race issue, that it is an important point of circle breaking that leads to learning, but also the inherent nature of group interaction and learning, something she describes nicely in the first couple of chapters talking about Vygotsky and other theorists.
I want to add, group work helps to give voice to our students and acknowledge they have real things to teach everyone in class, no matter what their background is.
Lets just think of what we'd like to ask everyone?
I'd like to know how/if people think sustainability can occupy the same circle breaking status as race and gender do in the book. How do class race and gender come into play in our classrooms?
Also, I'm interested in hearing from everyone more on the question you asked me earlier:
What will they take away?
Also if they've seen any of what Roskelly talks about in terms of group dynamic and everyone having different things to add to achieve learning play out in their classes?
Jeff: I'd like to know some ways in which we already achieved, knowingly or no, this idea of "Breaking the circle" in our experiences as teachers thus far, or if not, where we think we went wrong. And what Roskelly might offer as a solution
Mackenzie: One last thing I guess is how much it's important for groups to follow these natural models, and how do we as teachers negotiate keeping groups on task without keeping them from learning naturally?
Jeff: And that's it! TTYL BTW delete all the smileys!